Firstly, the biker tips section of the site is an excellent idea and I was wondering whether there might be any plans to cover counter steering at all?

One Team

Good suggestion..


Hopefully one of the guys will come up with something.

Thanks, Dave!

Its not something I've actually tried yet and I'm keen to know whether its an urban myth or whether it does actually work!

:-)

In fact, someone said to me recently you can't really corner without counter steering and I'm probably doing it already and don't realise it.

One Team

yes you are already subconciously doing it.
we have covered it in the riding skills section , but it was a while back.
counter steering is basically pushing the bars or footrests to make the bike turn in quicker. have a look in the riding skills section-all will become clear, if you've not long passed your test, dont try too hard.

Yes you are doing it without realising it.

Counter steering is all about overcoming gyroscopic precession, which is what your bike's wheels are indulging in when they are rotating.

We've all seen them, gyroscopes that is, they spin away balancing perfectly, and it is very difficult to tilt them once they are rotating - try holding a spinning bicycle wheel by it's axle and see how hard it is to tilt it.

This is one of the scientific 'laws' that keeps you bike upright and balanced once it is moving - two dirty great gyroscopes spinning away at each end of the bike. This is all very nice in a straight line but how do you overcome this natural upright tendency when you want to corner? Easy, countersteering.

You're approaching a nice left hander and your Yamahonduki is bowling merrily along in a straight line with no real inclination to deviate from it. Push gently on the LEFT handle bar (left hander so push left) and the bike will tip over to the left and pitch into the corner. Then relax, don't keep pushing once tipped, and the bike will track round on it's new course just like it did when upright 'cos those gyroscope's are balanced again. Yeah it sounds dumb, you're turning the bars to the right and turning left Dumber still, if you need to go in deeper, then turn the bars more to the right and it will pitch more to the left. Then to lift the bike out of the corner, yep you guessed it, do the dumbest thing you can think of and turn the bars to the left and hey presto, up comes the bike.

Ok, so how does doing something so alien to what you think you should be doing, work then?

When you push that left bar you upset the gyroscope that is your bikes front wheel and break the balancing act. The wheel turns slightly right and the bike tries to follow it but, due to momentum and gravity, it falls to the left. This is also why the faster you are going the more pronounced the effect. It's like when you turn to the right in a car, it rolls to the left. Go back to your feet up 180 of the CBT. Even at those slow speeds you move your weight to the inside of the turn to counterbalance the bikes tendency to fall the other way - get the idea? With countersteering you use this tendency to your advantage and make it work for you.

Now you know how those Superbike racers flick through those 'S' bends so damn quick - it's awesome to watch but even more awesome to do it yourself

I nearly had a bit of a mishap when I remembered this post whilst going around a roundabout. Just for a moment I consciously thought of how you steer and it was enough to make me turn the bars a fraction the wrong way instead of it coming naturally.

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I definately to the pushing on the bars bit - i.e. when I take a left, I gently push down on the left hand side of the bar and it tilts.

What I am sh1t scared of doing though it then pulling the right grip to go deeper!

Is this the only way to get round corners?

One Team

No,u could always walk















COAT!!

LOL!

pushing the bar is deffo better than pulling the opposite one-more control that way.
i'm working flat out at he mo peeps & ex posted a most excellent reply-i'm too tired to think bikes at the mo-so my appologies if the replies are a bit short.

any one who wants to do the old fashioned talking on the phone thing can ring me-i'm never too tired to talk!.
the mobiles on my website or pm me & i'll send it, hell if your that tight i'll even send you the home number!.
hth

If and when you get to the Hanging Off part of cornering you may find it easier to pull the opposite bar rather than push the inside bar. Don't try it just to see, you may end up doing a straight into a hedge practice sesion. Another thing you can try is just stick out your inside knee. Not in an attempt to ground it but doing it will create resistance on that side and will help, if only a tiny bit to get you round the corner. Sad but true.

Actually, that's an approach I use... but I'm bloody sure it's just my mind thinking that my knee will prop me up if I get it wrong

All these tips are in A Twist of The Wrist 2. Is this where you got them from ?



andy

No. We got them from long, bitter experience.

I have that book, and found it almost unreadable and not very helpful. Although the parts about terror fixation are interesting.

Countersteering is always best as it brings the wheels in line. Take a look at any photo of a rider cornering on track and look at their tyres. Most riders do it, to a greater or lesser extent, without consciously thinking about it.
As for powersliding, it's another story

Its not something they are supposed to teach you to pass a test but its necessary for survival beyond low speed manouver, IMHO!

I just posted this in another thread so thought I would copy it here also.


To understand countersteering take the front wheel of a childs bike and rotate it fast in the direction it would go if you were riding forward whilst holding it by the axel. Try and rotate it around the vertical axis like it would do if connected to handle bars. If you turn left the wheel leans over to the right and same the other way and which ever way the wheel leans thats the way you go. It is just the laws of gyroscopics.

sorry. I missed that, I couldn't stop looking at your avatar.
you've made an old man very happy

Interesting Post I was quite nervous when the Instructor said to try this today on my first lesson after the CBT but it works and feels right after a couple of corners just got to master the rest and get my test done before the weather changes

yup, good innit ?? welcome to the forum where2guv

if i could just add a little bit into this..........all this pushing and pulling on the bars stuff...imho is not the only or for that matter the best way to counter steer....cos if your pushing or pulling on the bars then your not relaxed, and if something goes wrong when cornering then your not in the prober riding possition to deal with the brakes....if you add some pressure with your knee to the tank(right knee for lefthanders, and visa versa) you'll find that your grip is relaxed on the bars giving greater control, and a more relaxed riding possition

or pressure to the pegs, or weight shift on yer bum cheeks, or drop a shoulder - it all works, and you dont have to be gripping the bar to push or pull

true .....it all works ..but some better than others.
if you think back to when you were a kid and rode your push bike without using your hands...............and you could turn the push bike just by twisting your upper body and adding pressure with your outer leg.

If you can move the bars without pushing or pulling on them then I would like to know cos I have some bent spoons that need straightening.

if you look at the reply above this.................oh ok.....i'll try and explain it a bit better.................are you sitting comfy....good.

right here goes................your heading into a corner, relaxed, head looking through and out of the bend........knee in to the tank, upper torso and head following your vanishing point..................you have dropped into the corner easier and quicker .....because your in the correct riding position, and because of your relaxed grip on the bars....then its easier to control your braking if the need arises

but actions speak louder than words........so try it.....then tell me im wrong

There you go... just accept that you didn't explain your self so good and try again. How can you preach about being so relaxed when you are sooooo tetchy. If you look right at the end of my post you will see a little smilie face laughing. This indicates that my answer was of a light hearted nature.


Now ya see me.


Now you don't.

I'm not preaching anything mate.............and I'm never tetchy.......what ever that is

just giving my opinion, for what its worth

I know what you're saying chilli, I tend to use my legs both on the tank and on the footpegs rather than doing the push/pull on the bars. I just feel a lot happier that way and it comes more naturally.

I think countersteering is one of those areas we think is really difficult (cause it sounds complicated) but if we allow ourselves to go with the flow of the bike we will fall into our own way of doing it without even realising.

Knowing what you are doing however and how it affects the bike is very useful as your riding improves and you want to know how to take corners faster/with more lean (i.e. kneedown).

It certainly isn't an item which I would tell a learner they had to get to grips with as its all scary enough when you get started without trying to get your head round even more things!

I agree with you to a certain extent but I also think you have been sucked into believing that more lean angle means you are going faster and the same with your knee down. The lean angle is a product of going fast and the knee has two purposes. One as a guage to how far you are over and two it also acts as an air brake to help with the turn. Rossi was once asked why he was so much faster than everyone else. He said "I brake later and get on the gas earlier". He does that by having the bike cranked over for the minimum amount of time alowwing him to open the throttle sooner. If he could do a full race with the bike upright he would.

Ah... I never said that leaning makes you take corners faster! I said the knowledge of what you are doing is useful when you want to take corners faster/ with more lean angle... i.e. kneedown. I am well aware that kneedown does not make for a faster corner (maybe that why I still can't get me kneedown - or maybe that's cause I've got short legs!) I meant it purely as one or the other... I apologise if that was not apparent.

i didn't mention anything about getting your knee down either......thats not for riding on the road.....and its not something that i would advocate

oh and i found out what tetchy ment....................

I wanted to mention about the effects of camber thrust, but knowing how hard it can be to explain countersteer I've copied someone else's hard work:

Camber Thrust

Blimey, that's a lot of info for this time of the morning, some good stuff though, it'll take me a while to finish digesting that!


Chilli - Agreed, it's not for the road - doesn't stop riders trying for it though.

It seems a lot of waffle to say very little IMHO.

Camber only has one effect on a bike cornering. It either increases or decreases the radius of the turn depending on the nature of the camber. If you speak with Kevin Schwantz, Keith Code or the like none of them will be able to explain that level of science to you. Keep it simple and keep your mind free of that kind of voodoo or you will be in the bushes before you have thought about any of it. If you read Keith Codes books, a lot of which I don't agree with 100%, he talks about having $10 to spend on the whole ride. When you first start off you are spending a lot of it on thinking about counter steering, gear selection, braking markers and the like leaving very little to spend on the more complicated things like actually getting round the track quickly. As you progress and get better 80% of the riding comes second nature and therefore leaves more to spend on the trickier stuff. The last thing you want to do is have a head full of mumbo jumbo because when something untoward happens you will have no room for error and you will resort to the things that are second nature, braking. Braking in a turn has a couple of major effects. It losses you traction if not done well and also makes you turn quicker.

Hey Blue, nice to see you posting on here.................great link...but all abit deep for this old dude

Hi Chili

I post here and there on 6 forums and UKBF has such a broad spread of biker types and knowledge without some of the ego/attitude you get on certain well known forums

The article is a bit techy but it's well contrcuted and a bit involved but, like countersteering, we normally accept these things as part of riding. Rather than condense/edit it myself I'd leave it to others read and synopsise (I think this is a real word) and make their own decision.

Heres a fairly good explanation

counter steering

But the thing is folks are asking on why and how it works, and once they find out the mechanics of how they cornered previously without knowing it, they may be a little messed up for a while till it comes natural again, happened to me