For the third time this month, I've had someone come up and ask me how much it costs to get a bike licence. And for the third time, it's someone who just wants one for a blast about on sunny days.

I realise that their desire is just as relevant as mine, but Summer Riders really do piss me off. To them it's just a tool, a plaything. They care nothing about getting their skills up or staying safe, so long as they don't crash.
They'll get themselves killed coz they think they're just as good as 6 months ago when they last rode and it'll be another statistic telling us that bikes are dangerous...

They'll care nothing for the campaigns for Riders Rights (they don't even know about Bus Lanes), they'll ride in stupid clothing, they'll just want to go fast......


I don't want to ramble like a parent at them.
Do I encourage them or advise they keep to pissing about in cars?

Just smile and nod your head...like we do when you post up...
Seriously though Woody, what does it matter why anyone rides or where or when anyone rides. just pass on the same info you would to anyone else and then let them get on with it.

I'm rattled today anyway, through the various ignorances and complacencies of people that results in more work for me.


Last thing I wanted was a bunch of twonks coming up to me and wanting a bike "coz it's fast, innit?". They're gonna die, we'll be tarred with the 'bikes are dangerous brush", the government will add up the statistics and bikes will be banned.

I'm a big believer in the 'Told You So' thing. If you have to find your own way, fair enough, but if there's a whole world of advice and support out there to help you and keep you alive, surely you should embrace that?
If, after ignoring it all, you get yourself killed through your own stupidity, you should be recognised as said feckwitt and chalked up as one of the exceptions.
NOT used as ammunition against the whole community to destroy it as a whole.


I don't buy the Victim culture or the right to anything beyond common courtesy. I believe in standing up for myself and my way of life.

Perhaps I should stop caring, like everyone else?

heres the news woody..."we're all going to Die", So get over it. And anyway, just cos someone askes a question in a way that doesnt fit your bill doesnt mean that their not serious or wont be compitent in what they choose to do..as i said pass on what you know, and let them make their choice. its their life's so let them make their own mistakes.

I think what woody is trying to say is that although it may be their lives to do with as they wish, there actions may have consequences. If they want to kill themselves at least do so in a way that doesn't provide more ammo for the anti-bike brigade.

The plus side is that they'll buy a bike and be scared sh!tless of the thing the first time they run into a corner a bit fast and sell it. That's exactly what a bloke I used to know did. He bought a Zzr 600 and scared himself silly after a week.

there is nothing wrong with a summer blast! I suppose it helps I ride everyday and know how to corner!

I would advise anyone the same was I was advised, and let them make up their own minds...

Yeah, i understand that Finn. but you cant be judge and jury just because a question is asked in the wrong way or wrong manner. I know loads of summer Bikers just as i know loads of all year round Bikers, some who are good, some who are bad but both fall into the 2 camps, just the same as ive known seasoned Bikers to die on the roads ive also known summer only Bikers to suffer the same fate. so its all sods law, a flick of the coin if you like and all we can do is pass on any info we have to make them better riders...so sod the Anti's, ride it like you stole it and enjoy it while you can!

Yeah, pretty much.
I care because what they do will affect how people react to me and all the good I try and do will be for nothing, because someone else was a twonk.

Remember that "having fun and not hurting anyone" idea?
There ya go.


Problem is when they don't even want to listen.


Yeah - Ride it like you stole it: In a quiet, safe, inconspicuous fashion that does not attract Police attention!!!!



Ah, feck it - I'm just gonna let them die.
Who cares, so long as I'm alright, eh!!

ah. i get it now, so what your saying is their not listening to you!

Who does?

They are coming to YOU for help about something they know little or nothing about.

There's no need to be an ass to someone that probably looks up to you and is asking for a bit of guidance. Even if they have the whole "I want to ride fast for fun" attitude. You don't know what you want until you start biking.

I had a biker not being nice to me when I asked him a question about getting into biking. He told me that I shouldn't bother as I would kill myself.

What a

EDIT: I'm sure alot of bikers like bikes because "they're fast". That doesn't mean they can't ride them safely.

I'm still trying to work out why people ask you questions

I am currently a summer rider! Are you tarring all of us with the same brush? That sounds familiar, all kids are troublemakers.. all teens on bikes hoon around.

You don't like it when people tar bikers in general, but you are doing it yourself to summer riders. I aim to get a winter hack again, but how do you know that once those who just want a summer blast won't decide that with rising fuel costs etc won't take it into winter riding too?

she never misses a beat

Ditto - except in my case at the mo I am a summer/some weekends rider!

I get what you're saying but i think you can't stop people.......what if someone hadn't liked the look or sound of you and had put you off training? You'd have missed out on a whole world of things you now love and make the effort to know more about......Who's to say that the twonk you spoke to couldn't go along and be trained by a really inspirational instructor who enabled him to have his "summer blast" (and why not - we all love the summer blasts, don't we, even if we ride all year round) but to do it progressively as his skills improve and in the proper kit? I'd rather give him that prod in the right direction rather than him go along to some tin-pot outfit that thinks training is 'just getting you through your test'......

Sorry, if I sound like I'm having a go ....... I'm not, I'm just all for giving people opportunities. What they do with it afterwards is their business (provided it doesn't hurt anyone else) but if we went around stopping people doing things they want to do, women wouldn't have the vote and universities would be for the over-priveledged only and what kind of world would that be? (No sarky comments about women having the vote, you lot ).

If we are all honest then most of us have got into biking for the lifestyle, whether its going fast, touring, racing whatever. Biking will always have the 'rebel' appeal and some people will always take it to extremes. After all we have all broke the speed limit at some point, used 'judgement' on dubious riding technique, pushed our skill etc



I think its more of a case of a lot of potential riders are only willing to put minimum effort into their riding, just to get thru the test. As pass rate can be critical for a number of schools they may end up pandering to the market (rather than have a good all round rider that fails its maybe easier to have a somewhat less skilled rider that can satisfy test requirements IYSWIM)

On the Reading road heading to Foxes/Oxford today had a summer rider blast past us on 08 white blade. When we eventually got to Oxford (Heyford Hill) the trafpol were there and the wrecked bike was being loaded on the back of a recovery truck (no sign of rider)

I initially did it for the convenience of not sitting in traffic. Now summers here, kids are off school and it's now taking me longer on two wheels including getting changed & bike out than it would in the car.

Now if I'd said to any of you "I just want to be a commuter" I'd probably be more hated than a summer rider. As it is I found I enjoy it so I get up earlier & take the bike!!! ( and come home the long way )

I too am a summer rider!!!! Live 5 mins from work so don't need it to ride to work. I have had extra training and been on bike safe days. I also know my limits haven't been out for at least 4 weeks so went out on Sunday took it easy did my own thing and let my other half do his own thing just met up with him on the way.

Anyone coming into biking asking me questions I always advise extra training. I'd like to do something every year, think schools should promote extra training in spring just so those who want to brush up on their skills can.

You'll always get the heros no matter what, on bikes or in cars for that matter. And you'll always get the knobs who ride past you like bats out of hell and can't be bothered to acknowledge you like a rider did to me on Sunday!! But I got home safe and sound and that's all that really matters!

How do you know they don't ride all year round?

they dont anymore thats for sure, either been hospitalised or went home in a body bag from the description

you just have to look at the condition of their bike, or their shiney new power ranger kit

Most sensible things I've read on here in a long time.

Why would you think that Garry, some dont have the option of public transport or have a car to use on their daily trip to work, anyone who commutes on a bike all year deserves a heap load of respect and probably have more road skills due to riding in varied weathers than most so called Bikers have.

My bike is normally spotless and my leathers are quite new... Personally I think the only way to distinguish a summer rider from an all year rounder is to talk to them. For a couple of winters I commuted on a gixxer 6. It was quite scary at times, and I now choose to take the car in winter times, but will still go out at weekends when traffic isn't so bad, and I don't have to be anywhere at a certain time...

Different things motivate people in different ways.

Jon.

It sure does Jon, i wouldnt think about biking all year only cos i dont need to. seen the times when i did, proper winters too when i was froze to the tank and icicles hanging from my nose but like you, i'll take the bike out on a not too bad winters day and have a blast.

i ride in all weathers on my 125, usually try and avoid snow and ice and wind if i can, but anything else is a go, just got to be careful but in that i ride out of nessecity as i have to commute to work/see gf etc but i also liek the weekend jaunts (wen i have a chance )

Was based on a comment a guy made to me once, about how if you didn't ride it for pleasure but just used the bike as a souless tool to comute then it wasn't in your blood or your heart to be a biker.

I smiled nodded and moved on

when i 1st met VANDEEN, my instinct was to run away! if i had taken the comedy double act that is woody or finns approach, where would he be now?

he made it quite clear it was solely for a commute, did his training & is now a "friend"-not once did i mock him for keeping to a 125-it did the job & gave him an insight to the 2 wheel world.
the only time i did "slightly" mock was when he took his time taking the bandit home, but he did it his way & is off to squires this weekend.

my bike is a tool, i dont love it-it gets washed once a month if it needs it(& then usually by the guy at work)
i ride it in the summer months only as a rule-in the winter i use the works cb500-because i'm not fecking stupid.

these days i rarely have the time for a pleasure ride-i'm either out with Nova who is training for Advanced(not with me i hasten to add), or i'm following private &/or das students.

which pigeon hole do you want to put me in?

people have the freedom of choice to do what THEY want for THEIR reasons, dont lose sleep over it, you might get shot/stabbed tomorrow-or run over by a bus, electrocuted by the kettle/toaster etc.

Where have I once expressed an opinion either way in this thread? The only thing I posted at all was a re-wording of what I thought woody meant.

So i wasnt alone with that feeling about him then
To be fair, Finn just tried to clarify what Woody was getting at, personaly i think Woodys attitude stinks on this one, but i could once again be takeing the wrong end of the stick.

OK, explain to me how this is is a perfectly valid idea, then;

"I once rode a bike for about six months, Off Road, in South Africa and now I want a bike to ride through the town and city centres over in England. My licence is valid over here, so I can just get whatever I want and ride it. I don't need Woody's advice about getting training or safety kit because the traffic conditions here are identical to SA's Off Road tracks".

Tell me he isn't a twonk who's about to become another statistic, then........



I've no problem with people who take as much or as little of the lifestyle as they want, but with all of it comes a responsibility. Remember this quote?
"When you take charge of a motor vehicle, you take on the responsibility for your own life, the lives of your passengers and the lives of every road user around you". That's from an instructor.

Everyone said, "Oh yes, that's a good way of putting it", but how many people actually bear it in mind when riding?


You lot bitch about bad riders giving the rest of us a bad name, yet how come I'm not allowed to do my part in trying to change that?????!!!!

Remember this link?
Scroll down to where it says "What I Dislike about fair-weather bikers".


A twonk who, after being offered links and advice on all the good aspects of biking, still really wants to just feck about on a bike? They can go and find out about it from someone other than me.

Instructors get paid to inspire and turn 17-year old scrotes into decent riders.
It is not my place (and clearly not my forte) to turn clueless 38-year-old, thrill seeking, high-paid middle-managers in search of an abusable status symbol and fashion accessory into decent riders.

Lets himself down a bit at the end with "So if you're a stockbroking yuppie who's bought himself a nice toy" which, I'm afraid, exposes the sheer jealousy towards someone who can buy a bike because they want to. Sounds like a class war to me, rather than a rationally argued diatribe about relative skills.

well that clears that up then Dont think i've ever bitched about others actions giving me/us a bad name, cos i dont care what others think about me or my riding

I read it as a rant against people who think bikes are toys, one I agree with.
They are immense fun, but they are NOT toys.

Like pretty much anything, (let's use alcohol as an example) used properly it is fine and even beneficial.
Abused, it brings considerable ruin. Bikes just do it very quickly and very messily.

I don't even really mind those who do misbehave so much, so long as they understand and accept the risks and consequences. You don't (generally) get everyone in a pub being decried as alcoholic lager louts, just because some people can't be responsible. Why does it happen with bikers?


I'm just having real issues coping with the ideas right now.

YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN

But you all knew running was futile you've read the tortoise and the hare

I'll freely admit I'm a petrol head but with a far bigger lust for 4 wheels than two, thats probably a confidence thing. If I can ever put a bike from understeer to oversteer to an all wheel drift whilst in complete control then my opinion may change..... I can't see it happening myself.

I take things at my pace and in my time, like Wrinkly said "an armed SWAT team couldn't rush VANDEEEN"

All in all, I enjoy my two wheel experience, far more than I ever thought I would. I may have bitten off more than I require with the bandit, but time will tell. As for a summer rider / power ranger I'm more of a telly tubby myself

If I hadn't had the encouragement & friendship that came with going onto two wheels then things may have turned out diferently.

So thanks guys for all your help and for every bit of kndly advice we can offer to whoever it may be, we may bring in another convert to fight for the cause rather than go against us.

How do you rate my RC30 - toy or what?

My fireblade?

Your cruiser, which is unquestionabbly styled for looks and pose rather than usability?

I dare say that there are some who would reguard them as toys, but that would probably be the well heeled amoung us who dont need to do anything other than ride on a sunny summers day.

Dunno what the RC30 can do, but if it's anything like the 'Blade, then I rate it as an insanely fast thing which must be handled with responsibility and respect.

Same as my Cruiser, which can still break the ton.
They go fast enough to be dangerous if handled improperly, so must be treated accordingly.


They are NOT toys.




Incidentally, I ride a Cruiser primarily so I can stretch my legs out. I find it more comfortable than having them tucked up under me. The whole Hard Rock Rebel sh!te and all was a secondary thing, most of which got washed off in the Winter weather anyway. I don't even wear the retro leathers anymore - I have nice, quietly styled FT leathers with proper armour and all now.

But none of that actually matters, does it?

Of course the RC30 is a toy - no one in their right mind buys an RC30 (or RC45 or OW-1 or 916/996/999/1098 series or any hypersports bike as a workhorse. And that includes the fireblade, the GSXR series, the ZX series, the FZRs, and in reality, if we're honest, any cruiser ... you see where I'm going here? They're all bought because they're fun or look good. Did anyone jump on bikerchick for posting this? They're not built just for transport. If that's what you want, buy a BSA M40, if you can find one, or a round tank, or a bantam. Or an MZ.

Now if someone buys a GT550 or 750 you maybe can say, yes, that's a tool, a workhorse.

I know of plenty of people who will argue convincingly that, given how cheap cars are, any motorbike is a toy. And it can be argued that unless you regularly commute in and out of the centre of one of a small selection of cities, they have a point.

My point is that Woody is standing leaning over the top of a very long and slippery slope, and his comments about what constitutes a toy and should be ranted against can apply to almost every bike if you really think about it. So taking the right-on class-war stance to rail against bikers who don't fit your own narrow definition of what actually is a biker is a questionable practice, and I have to question the motives. For example, I commute every day that it's safe to do so on a bike in and out of London. I could argue that anyone who doesn't do similar battle on a daily basis is a bit of a sham. Would that be fair? I don't think so, but it's certainly the same way of thinking.

I'm sitting on the fence on this one, I can understand what woody is saying about having to be careful when riding a bike, I also see it from everyone else's point of view.

Yes bikes need to be treated with care and respect, but ultimately I ride a bike for fun....

Toys = Fun?

I don't need a bike by any stretch of the imagination, but there is nothing better than throwing your leg over a bike, and going for a little ride, even if it is to work and back again...

All boils down to how you define the word "Toy" then, personaly i dont see any machine capable of 100+mph at the filck of a wrist as a toy, defining it as a play thing! I would however define it as a toy if it wasnt a nessessity in life, which funnily enough describes my Blade
Anyone who uses a bike to commute every day in all weathers through out the year, would certainly not define their bike as a toy.

I'd say a toy is something you don't need but that you want because it will be fun to use. Like skis, a sppedboat, a pogo stick ... all of these for most people are non essential but nonetheless desirable fun objects.

so a motorbike is all things to all men ...all thats missing is a pair of tits and a cargo from the Offlicence

I passed my car test in february so can finally become a fair weather rider... Having ridden for 3 years in all weather I am pretty happy about it.

A bike is a kind of toy. Sure it can kill you if handled wrong, but it gives imense pleasure and enjoyment to the user, which is kind of what a toy is... I agree that those who simply want to get into biking because bikes go really fast are potential disasters. But thats what instructors are for, to show them how to ride safely... if they ask for help give them it. The ones to worry about are the one who DONT ask for help. The ones who assume they already know it all because they drive a MR2 or something...

I agree with Billy that it doesn't really matter what 'class' of rider they are. Although I rode everyday for 3 years I rarely rode for pleasure, but more as a means of getting from A to B. Where as my friend is a very definite summer rider, but constantly rides to Brighton (some 100+ miles) and other places further afield. So whilst I have experience in all weathers, he has much more miles under his belt.

The reason biking is more dangerous than cars is, unfortunately, the accessability of biking. An expensive/fast car costs upwards of 20k whereas you can get a 150mph+ bike for what, less than £6? It means that people are more likely to purchase something that maybe they can't handle too early...

OK, consider a bow or a target sports air rifle.

Used properly, they are indeed a tool with one intended primary purpose.
It just happens that their design incorporates other features that enhance the fun we derive from using them.

BUT..... I can't think of anyone in the various associated clubs who'd approve of someone going out and getting one for the sole purpose of (ab)using it to feck around and be a twonk with.


Anyway, the whole rant is pointless. Bloke has gone and got an off-road trailie thing, complete with off-road tyres, and is going to ride it round the roads this weekend. He says there's no difference between riding it off-road in the SA bushland and through busy English city traffic, so who am I to argue....

what the feck has a bow or air rifle got to do with anything anyway, i hope you pointed out to the Bloke that off road tyres are illegle to use on british roads