Both?
The suzuki project has gotten utterly bogged down with starting/running problems.
Here's what's going on!

Starter turns, no problem. fuel seems to be getting to the carbs I know this coz if i leave the starter running too long it floods the engine.
plus the float bowls feel cold.

I've got power from the battery coz i'm running jump leads from the cage.

I've swapped the pulse coils from the 250 and the rest of the ignition is standard 250 also, so all the circuitry should match.

there is power getting to the cdi and the coils coz i've had one or two good whacks from the HT leads.
If you hold the lead near the engine without a plug cap a nice big fat blue spark jumps to earth.

but if you put the cap on the lead and put a plug in no spark to the electrode.
I can get a spark if i hold the plug about 5-10 mil from the engine it'll jump across the electrode and down the screw thread, but nothing if i hard earth it.
I've tried 3 sets of plugs all new, i've changed the plug caps. sometimes it runs, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm sometimes getting small backfires from the exhaust and also the carbs.

Also the coils seem to be getting warm/hot especially on the posts that hold them to the frame.

when it DOES start it seems to run nice and smooth, flat tickover with no fluctuation.

I'm proper stuck with this boys n girls so any suggestions would be gratefully received.

is it cdi or points?
something like timing 180 deg out?
i dont know enough about modern lectrics but if you get a spark from the caps but not with the plug in, i'd say its to do with the ignition timing or cdi/points.
not much help am i.

If that's the case then why does it run at all if it was timing so far out then surely it would fire at bdc.
No kidding dp i've actually heard the thing running, it sounds sweet.
It's just "tempremental" sp?

oh it's cdi btw

tonight i'm going to strip both carbs down and give them a really good clean.
put the original jets back in. check the floats for holes and sticking needles.
check both diaphrams for holes.
and blow through all the jets.
check for a sticking choke.
that should cover that.

Well it's looking like the coils so it's back to the breakers.

Lob it, chuck it...play a bit of football, clean it off, re-install, fire it up - hey presto!!! bugger still doesn't work... Sigh.... Hope you didn't strip the carbs tonight! Fat, Blue, hand shakin' spark + engine doing the funny things! = Gotta be electrical! Check coils....spark plugs, well you've done enough tests so not them.. Long shot - if you've got an avometer - check resistance on each of the spark plug wires/cables. don't spend money yet! Let me know...

And don't play with the Carbs, not yet anyway!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! problems electrical/possibly meck. But I don't think so...nice tick over on occasion, implies meck OK...Carb....OK- fuels already getting to where it should be! Play with 'lectrics an give me stats on Low circuit/High. Hopefully decide from there..............

had a ohmmeter on the coils today and the primary windings are showing open circuit.
Ergo they are inducing voltage but not enough.
Come to think of it if you touch the ht leads you get a shock but nothing to write home about.
I've had ht shocks that'll make you lose your lunch.

if my memory serves me right....GSX HT shocks.........FECKIN HURT!!!!
do one thing ima, check the earth wire that comes out of the loom.....on GSX1100ES and the 550's the earth is on a plate thats rubber mounted, the 1100 was doing stuff like yours, i ran it for a day and it was fine, the guy picked it up, went two feet and bangs and pops, wouldn't run just flooded

I've got more earths on this thing than you can wave a flag at.
1 battery to frame
1 engine to battery
1 loom to battery box
plus the cdi is earthed to the reg rec plate which sits on a rubber mount.

Did you try another coil from breakers? Sounds like the one you've got is degrading - hence intermittent faults - good spark/bad spark; Earths sound OK, specially if you can ground spark plug on engine an get nice "light blue touch paper and retire kind of thing!" also engine ticks over on occasion "like a dream" are the earths tight - yea, I know you've done the homework but do me a favour an check again! S. plug leads probably AOKY but give it a crank in the dark - S Plug housings may be earthing. Work your way back from there! S plugs...Leads...Coil... (forget contacts, there at least close enough to make it sound sweet. Second thought are they electronic? If no check cap for tracking). Told you I know nussing about this particular bike, lob it down the garden, delicately apply some persuasion (sledge hammer works for me). Then let me know...Tec. stuff to follow if above fails...............Gotta get you ready for next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm hoping to pick up 2 new coils tomorrow, might as well change em both.
The gsx is a twin coil system and the ht leads are fixed in them.
All my earths are nice n tight i've checked those and double checked them.
I've tried 3 sets of spark plugs and 2 sets of plug caps, insulated all the HT leads everywhere they cross metal.
Same result, sooty plugs that won't spark, hard earthed.
The real twonk with this has been, everytime i put something new on (plugs, plug leads.) it would start and run making me think i'd bottomed the problem.
give it 10-15 mins and i'm back to sooty plugs/starting problems again.
The only thing left is coils.
Thinking back when this thing was a 250 it had slight running problems.
It would start ok but only on one cylinder, then after maybe a coupla mins the second would start to fire.
I need to get this sorted this week if only for my sanity.

sooty plugs?
if its just the lectrics then yer plugs shouldnt be sooty at all m8-wet perhaps, but sooty sounds like too much choke-is it the 400 carbs or the 250 ones you're using?(or are they the same size bodies with different jets?)

it's the 400 carbs with std jets, BUT sooty plugs are also a sign of incomplete combustion due to a weakass spark.
I thought choke at first and the carbs have all been cleaned so everything is running freely, the floats are ok no signs of holes or sticking needles.
Basically from what i can figure from the net, manuals and various other dodgy sources, is this.
put new plugs in and the bike will fire, but because the spark is weak all the fuel isn't gettong burnt so soot/carbon builds up on the electrode and porcelain causing an insulating effect which stops the plug from firing properly.
eventually tho whole plug stops working.what i need is a better stronger spark.

























I think..

quote:

....Basically from what i can figure from the net, manuals and various other dodgy sources..........



DAMN!! Who told you?!…..
Ok I’ll come clean I’m really a dyslexic Yorkshire man who was edumacated by one of ma's ferrets , at night i'm a 83 yr old pole dancing transvestite, and turkey pluckier…. The nearest I’ve bin to a motorbike is when one hit me coming out of the mental health clinic :tounge:

but really......
i hope you get it sorted soon, it must be doing your head in m8

OK.................the new coils are on and it runs after a fashion but not with the vacuum pipe connected
put the vac pipe on and it stops and won't start, there's fuel getting to the engine, so much in fact if i thumb the starter for about a minute it drips from the exhausts (a bit worrying)
Any clues??

Hang on forget the bit about the vac pipe it runs with that on as well.
still being awckward to start though.
it goes, it doesn't go.
Gotta tell you guys this has got me well foxed I thought i'd seen about every bike hassle known to man.

I might go right back to basics strip everything off and start from scratch.
Then i can eliminate one thing at a time.

That would be a timing problem would it not? The vac. advances or retards ignition on a car at least

Can you put a timing light on a bike then?

sorry blandy no cigar, that problem has now gone, if it ever existed!!

Sorry, mate... just my twopenneth you know

duely noted and thank you every bit of input helps.

woodz old boy that's bang on the money.
runs for a short time maybe 10-15 mins then if i stop it it just floods out.
I think i know which earth you mean but what am i looking for roughly.
does the earth need moving or should it be isolated can't see the point of that myself.
If it's the one i'm thinking of it's fastened to the plate that the cdi/reg rectifier, starter solenoid is screwed to.
Are you thinking broken wire?

run a earth link from the battery onto the earth thats already there, is it earthed onto the reg/rec? make sure the screws clean, and the base of the reg too, check every earth take them off and clean them the bolts,connections and the surface, they may look clean, and tight but you'd be suprised how often they aint!
if its any consalation i haven't got my centre stand spindle out!!

Right i'll do that the morrow.

what you need is FECKING BIG HAMMER i'll lend you mine when i'm done.

on second thoughts try this run some washing up liquid around the spindle and let it stand about an hour vertical if you can so cappilary action and gravity draws it in.
You'd be amazed what a good lubricant washing up liquid is it also makes a pretty good cutting fluid if you're tapping holes or cutting screw threads.

thanks m8 but i think i.ve about killed it now! washing up liquid is good for stickin car leccie windows too bit of the old fairy down the seals soon sorts em

If this turns out to be just a dodgy earth i'll fecking kick myself all round yorkshire.

After I've had a go!!

just a little thought.......
all this petrol that isn't burning or escaping from the exhaust, where else can it go? check your oil cos it may of got past the pistons and filled the crank case, and that will make it dodgy when it gets hot.....
my mate had an alfasud that did it and he dip stick cleared all the lanes of the A1M near washington services when his car brokedown, back fire and ignited the petrol in the sump!

Thank's for that woodz you're such a cheery soul.
It'd be just my luck to get the thing running and then have it detonate underneath me.

Let's hope it happens, when your cheery neighbour is over complaining about the noise of the bike. He'd think twice about coming over again.

BOOM

errr, i better make sure the "secret" thingy we talked about is in perfect bloody order then

well it runs all i need to do now is make it consistent and stop it fouling the plugs and i might be on to a winner.

The plug that is running keeps fouling with soot all the time though

have you (of course you have) checked the diaphragms?
just a thought.

sticky valves?

better not be or i'm gonna set the bugger on fire and claim on the insurance!!

This may seem a stupid basic idea but is the petcock set to prime. If not check out gstwin site they may be able to through in some more ideas. Cheers MAlly

Sound's very much like your fuel mixture, is well knacked! Hence nice idle for short time, Plugs soot up, an rough idle/nonstart/reluctant start is result next time you start him up. Given all thing's said re. 'lectric's good check of the carbs is required- (Oh, and I just know you've done it - please say yes - what's the air filter like????)

Oily plugs - some indication of worn bore or piston rings p'raps even Valve guides - have you played with Vernier?????
sooty dry plug(s)/no oil deposits - Indicates a Carb problem - check mix, float and Do say Fec' what do U take me for' type of thing, (flings meself to floor in reverence) the Filter....is it greasy blob or nice free flowing, wheezy type thingy that we all admire and go OOOOOOw.... K&N etc..

Run down to the bottom of the garden pick up those (once U find them type of thing) rusty plugs and supply a description - any damage, no matter how small? An check Oh, so carefully....LET'S FIX THIS!!

Okey dokey.
Filters are brand new S&B the cone type, clean as a whistle.
Had the carbs in pieces yesterday and blew through every single jet i could find everything looks ok.

Plugs I've had about 4 sets in now. when the bike runs it tends to favour the same cylinder every time.
the other fires intermittently or not at all, funny thing was i had her running yesterday without the filters on, plonking away on one cyl so i put my hand over the other carb mouth(basically for something to do instead of just sitting there)and the cylinder fired up.
don't know if this is relevant.

the cyl that fires warms up nice n quick but when i stop the engine the end is covered in what looks like black soot.

sometimes it looks all wet and shiny and black which at first i took to be oil but i have since realised is in fact petrol mixing with the soot giving the appearance of oil when the engine totally floods.

haven't really had the other cyl firing for any length of time so hard to say what the plug looks like.

can't see any kind of damage to the plugs at all.

Takes deep breath,
Did you check out the 400 mill b4 fitting?
compression on both cyls?
Carbs -diaphragms?
floats?
vacuum pipes fitted the right way?
choke working as it should?
the new filters-are they oil free or do you have to spray oil on them ala early K&N's
will it run without the filters?
at this stage it might be a good idea to start from the beginning again m8, but from what you describe, its a mixture/fueling problem, as mally says it might be something simple like the petrol tap on prime instead of run-a little knowledge can sometimes blind you, you know?

sounds a lot like an old engine a m8 of mine bought from a "reputable" dealer-turned out the crankcase seal was shot to hell & one piston had a bolt through the crown (to block up the hole caused by dodgy ignition timing).
mind you it was better than the Kawa triple another m8 had-complained of lack of power-took the head off & there was half a tennis ball pushed over what was left of the middle piston

Takes even deeper breath.
Compression on both cyls 145psi.
carbs have all been dismantled and re-built.
floats are swinging freely and the wee valves are opening and closing smoothly.
diaphragms look good with no signs of holes or wear.
the vac is working i think coz the suction at the carb mouth is enough to pull your hand in and it's getting fuel.
The tap on the tank has only two settings on and reserve.
Not sure about oil in the filters.
It will run without filters but only one pot, as i said had over second carb mouth it kicked up.

I reckon if i could stop it fouling the plug on the one running i might get somewhere.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
ggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
(pants for breath)



just checked the fuel air mixture screw and they're both screwed in full as opposed the 250 ones 3¼ turns out
FFS

Hopefully a nice sweet BROOM! now - well done, but, em, err, dare I ask! ah, mmm....who screwed them little dandies tight in the first place?????

Seriously hope probs. are solved and motor's a dream....... well done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It wasn't me honest sir there's still a coupla gliches to sort out, the flat spot @ 6000 is fecking dire band it won't run through it but i've got various jetty things knocking about so that should sort that,

I have to say during this project my knowledge tree has branched out in all different kinds of directions.
I've learned to stick weld, i can pull a mikuni carb down and put it back together again in 5 mins blindfolded.
i've learned all different kinds of things about spark plugs eg:heat range long and short reach, electrode types and what all the fancy numbers on plugs actually mean. not a complete waste of time then.
And i can say i sorted it without resorting to a garage.
Obviously not without a lot of help from you guys and i thank you all for your patience and support.
I'll be seeing you all on the open road.














Mines the one with 4ft flames coming out the back.

Goes without saying Imagieca..............now for next project............ lobbed , thrown, spare parts, sounds like your'in a bit of a mess.... Me, Well I've got a nice strimmer for hire, even nicer, no, no, soz free too goood gome, nearly ..It's a two stroke with sooty plugs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sad in'it meant Gnomy type thingy! eg...fishergnomy that keeps sending postcards. New thread.... if anyones interested...Got a story about a shopping basket + 152 gnomes (Almost fit in a basket, but will take a strollwith you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! signed worried!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Paranoid fits the script better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GJ i do declare you may be completely

You been talkin to my Shrink - she said it was confidential, sigh... can't trust the trick-cyclist who can I trust???











Thank god for fellow bikers!

Trust no one
" fox mulder, The x files"