Hi Guys
I have just failed my test for looking behind too often and now I am unsure what I am doing right. I was checking over right sholder every 15 seconds ish. The examiner was sugesting that I should only check behind when changing speed or direction and use my mirrors for any other check. I am also confused by the correct proceedure for going Left, Right and Straight on at round abouts although I think I got that right can someone please clarifie them for me.


Many Thanks Geo

What he told you was right. Only check if you switch lanes OR change speed (i.e. accelerate or decelerate) Even though you can get away with mirror check only on slowing down (both mirrors). The reason why you need a (right) shoulder check when accelerating is to check that someone is not overtaking you. It is illegal (and dangerous) to accelerate when being overtaken.

Roundabouts.
Going left (stay in left lane, switch on left indicator. You can do a left shoulder check if you wish, depending on your lane positioning to check for cyclists)

Going straight ahead or any exit between the left (not included) and 12 o clock.
(stay in left lane. Dont indicate. Indicate left when you pass the last exit before your exit. Same goes for your left shoulder check).

Going past the 12 o clock (straight ahead) exit or going full circle.
(stay on the right hand lane. Indicate right as you enter the roundabout. Keep on the right lane. Mirror-indicate left-shoulder check change lanes after the last exit before your exit). )

Always switch of the left indicator when in the new road (after the roundabout)

Hope that helps

when going left i would do my mirror and lifesaver/shoulder check just be for i signal....and then manouver........
Remember...mirror...signal....manouver

Thanks guys thats a great help any more would be great

I'd be tempted to wait until an instructor posts or someone who has previously taught.. whilst I'm sure the advice above is given in good faith I would hate to think you'd been given incorrect advice..

I am sure I am going to regret saying this but er....shouldnt everyone who passed their test know the answer to the above? (myself included).

Hi Georgepoppy,

I was in the same situation as you, at roundabouts I did not know where to do my checks the instructor was no help all he did was shout and was self obsessed with his own ego.

I think a DVD is available have to check ?

good luck.

I think accelerating when someone is overtaking you is simply bad manners, it's not illegal. What should an accelerating car driver do when a biker roars past, stop accelerating? I'd suggest defining our terms here: what we are talking about is lifesavers. I was taught to do a lifesaver before moving off, changing lanes, turning at a junction or overtaking. Doing one instead of a mirror check is taking your eyes off the road too often. Remember OSMPSL. Mirror checks should be obvious so the examiner can see when you are checking your mirrors and when you are lifesavering.

Roundabouts - what vaskunito said applies to your standard 2 lane, 4 exit gyratory. It's difficult to say online, but most roundabouts are more complex, have a 3rd lane and more and differently placed exits. Check the signs as you approach and watch for lane markings. During the test, always indicate just after you passed the exit before the one you want to leave at and lifesaver the opposite direction you are "turning" in (left if you are taking exits on the right and right if you are taking exits on the left).



You'd think, wouldn't ya?

There's quite a good article on roundabouts in this month's BIKE magazine which is worth a read.

I think this is why the forums subtitle is "Ask DP"

For questions like this, its also good to check out the highway code as that is the pretty much definitive reference we are all supposed to be riding to.

if you dont have a copy then its available online here

and a direct link to the section on roundabouts

Fair enough. Its not illegal but its very dangerous. Since you asked the highway code states when being overtaken:

"If a driver is trying to overtake you maintain steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone's overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a 2 second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you"

Now, when it comes to lifesaver(s) there are two opinions about this. The first is what you said, every shoulder check (left or right) is a lifesaver and you do it when you described. Some instructors say that using the term "lifesavers" for all the shoulder checks takes the importance out of the real/original lifesaver. That is, the check that you do only when turning right. You need to check both the mirror area (behind you) and the blind spot with one look so thats why you do a wider turn of your head. Thats the meaning of a lifesaver (at least how I was taught). Everything else is a shoulder check (when changing lanes, overtaking) and must always be used together with a mirror check.

Erm what does OSMPSL mean

OSM/PSL = Observation, Signal, Manoevre/Position, Speed, Look.

I'd like to be gently sarcastic and post a link to the CBT:
Clicky for Online CBT Refresher Course

Come on guys... I've ridden for a total of about 16 hours, including an 8 hour CBT. I don't know anything about advanced cornering on adverse cambers or outside placement to enhance view of the road.... or even why getting your knee down is a good thing, but even with my limited experience I do know about this roundabout stuff.

I don't want to sound patronising, but this is basic, basic stuff here.

When approaching a turn - Observation Signal Manouvre Position Speed Look.

In order, observe your surroundinds, signal your intention to turn, manouvre into the appropriate lane, get in position for the turn within your lane, be in the right speed for the turn and take a look (lifesaver) just before you make the turn.

When overtaking it's usually just OSM - observe (including the lifesaver), signal and manouvre.

This is the problem with this kind of question. People ride differently. Even the instructors tell it to you differently.

To me, I'm not constantly checking over my shoulder. I observe using my mirrors and when I decide it's safe and appropriate to manouvre I do so, making a lifesaver just before doing so. I don't think this devalues lifesavers in any way. Besides, what's worse, devaluing the word "lifasaver" or devauling the worth of a lifesaver by checking over your shoulder every 15 seconds...?

Been riding for 6 years and having never heard it been called osmpsl

I get what it means now and can see why you've been told it, and patronising is that fact you assume I don't do that......

lol, what is assumption the mother of again?

that would be all screw ups, and yes I may be one, but I'm down to do my IAM and am still here 6 years on, so can't be doing everything wrong now can I

Different schools teach different things, I was taught in terms of lifesavers. Thers nothing wrong with admitting you don't know something, the difference is being man or woman enough to admit and ask

Well said, Dink. "One who asks is a fool for five minutes, one who does not is a fool for life" and other such true sayings. I wasn't intendng to be patronising about the OSM/PSL thing, which is why I linked to the CBT pages. I spent ages reading through all that before I did my own CBT and it helped teach me stuff I would otherwise have forgotten by now!!

I was a bit reluctant to post that stuff about roundabouts, still being a newbie and all, but I agree with Vas in that we should all know what the Highway Code says. We're advised to know the basics before we even do a CBT and my instructor actually quizzed us individually to make sure we all knew the important bits (he was v. cool).

Thanks Guys I think I have the roundabout thing now but should all the rest of my rear observations be done in the mirrors.
George

I Think Georgepoppy was referring to obbs on roundabouts not MSM, knowing when to do the lifesavers and at what point.

I was told that I was doing mine to late????

After driving for 21 years... god that sounds like I’m an old boy with his pipe and slippers..... I picked up some useful tips and being out on the road for the first time made me more aware of the dangers of traffic and how fast it was.

Being cocooned in this false sense of security called (Cars) makes you complacent and shielded from the out side world.

I’m glad I moved over to the dark side.

Hey georgepoppy ive got a copy of the DAS Motorcycle riding hand book...it covers everything you need to know and how to apply it...so if you cant afford a copy then pm me your name and postal address and i'll send it on to you.

Looks like it's both scousepie.

Someone else on here recently failed there test for taking their eyes off the road too often. Now don't go the other way and NEVER do lifesavers. But its about making sure the examiner sees mirror checks as obvious, when appropriate and lifesavers when they are necessary for your survival.

going off topic a bit now, but to answer you question Geogepoppy, what Vas said was right. just remember you should be doing mirror checks every 10-15 seconds & lifesavers or shoulder checks before any manouver.
no two roundabouts are the same, so you have to use a degree of common sense for each one.
your das instructor SHOULD keep you up to speed & answer any questions regarding the test.

if your still unsure before the next test, PM me & i'll gladly talk you through anything.

Conflict of interest here. The topic is about roundabouts, not relative merits and experiences of riding schools fellas.

you guy's really need to take this to PM.........or go meet and slug it out

Apologies accepted, but if it gets that way again, can I suggest either taking it to PM or arrange a meeting behind the bike sheds after school?

Deep breaths and calm thoughts, eh.

edit: Sorry Chili, old bean - Crossposted!!

come on Guys we,re lossing the thread here

I'd advise contacting Devilpaint mate - he knows his stuff and is top instructor according to ex trainees of his that I've met.

Trinno , Vas, you both have PM's

My bad DP. I should have never replied.
Sad really, because I did not want to mention the school by name in this thread. But instead this guy wanted to defend his future employers while being offensive towards me. I just couldnt have that.
It will not happen again

ok Vas, nice one.

Thats ok woody me old son........its one of the reason i try not to offer my opinions on here anymore, lots of people getting ratty over points of view...but ho hum eh mate?....leave em to it i say............handbags at dawn

This place used to be about respecting each others opinions. We need to get back to that again.

To everyone. This is from our board rules. Read it.


That my have been lost over the last few months but it is time to reinstate it as rule number one. Keep the heid..

No worries. All my off-topic posts have been removed.

Ok back to the original question., do observations as and when you need to do them. how will you know when to do them> because you understand the NEED to do them.

People ask me when they need to do right hand lifesaver looks, when will the examiner expect to see them? well duh! when they are needed!



do lifesaver looks and other observations because you understand the need to. if i taught you how to cross the road as a pedestrian you wouldnt be getting run over and claiming you didnt know where to look for the traffic. if i taught you how to cross the road once youd remember and unsderstand, why is riding a bike any different?

Is it safe? i dont know, lifesaver look, ok now i do know.

sort yourselves out.

If you lot dont understand the need to do whatever you do at the time then people like me are fighting a loosing battle and you are doomed to crash. wake up, sort yourselves out if you are taking your test, do what is needed, do what you believe is necessary.

But isnt the post showing that new riders are finding most of the shoulder checks and general observation checks a little confuseing mate?

Yes chilli, but why? thats what i dont get. why is it difficult to understand where the dangers are and to look for them? Personally i think its more a case of people thinking theres some system that needs to be followed in order to pass the test and thats really what im trying to highlight.

People often do things in front of me and when i ask them why they did that they answer that it was what they thought an examiner would want to see. well, an examiner would want to see a good safe confident ride with observations that are necessary at the time.

I think its all down to the amount of info that a learner is supposed to take in during a set time. and they still have that all important test to go through. Its a bit different for you mate, cos your seeing it through experianced eyes.....so what i thinks going on with the learners is....There concentrating too much on what the examiners want....i was the same mate when i took my das..i knew i was able to do it...my instructor new i was able to do it..and even altho i had riding and driving experiance my head was still up my erse when the test came round...what i would liked to have seen during my das course was a suprise mock test, say mid course with a proper debreifing after it.....or maybe some proper class room work, with diagrams and stuff.....but in saying all that mate....maybe the 4.5 or 5 days isnt long enough....i know theres a lot of hours riding each day.....oh bugger im babblin on again aint i........

Funny you should say that chilli, i do a mock test at surprise level and most people go all strange when i announce it but it seems to get the nerves out of the way - and im harder than an examiner will be! it goes like this, ''ok, next turning on the right please, dont forget a lifesaver look....excellent, ok you are now on test, at all times follow the road ahead and if i want you to turn left or right i will tell you in good time'' - silence.

TBH it really seems to work, most students lose the fear factor after that , they still get nervous ( who wouldnt) but the test is no longer an unknown quantity and if they are doig rubbish things for an examiner i can sort them out before they take the real test.

As for everything i teach - its all about understanding why, i dont want to see a robot doing this and that for the sake that i told them too i want to see understanding. simple.

Zombie, that sounds exactly like what most new riders need. I guess the majority of training centres don't do the same thing which is a shame.

Its all so easy for us to forget just how strenuous the whole learning curve can be...and to be honest sometimes when you read some of the posts and replys from people that have passed their tests it amazes me that they have passed it at all...but thats another tangent for a night on the beer....
So tell me then mate...as an instructor ....just what changes would you like to see done to the das system of training to make sure that everyone was give the best and fairest instruction?

Blimey chili, thats a question and a half! TBH im not going to answer it because if i say what i really think then i will be flamed from here to right over there from now until kingdom come!

OH bugger mate...its not like you to tread lightly.......come on mate your an honest guy with a valued opinion that I'm sure loads of us would like to hear your point of view.........

ok but only a little bit and then only gentle.....

Q and A style.


if you had never ridden a bike in your entire life do you think even a five day course is enough before you are let loose on the world to buy whatever bike you like and can afford to insure?

Do you find it acceptible that das training is not monitored or assessed in the way that cbt training is? ( given that cbt training is meant to be strictly assessed and monitored and yet so many sharks exist) are you happy that das instructors are pretty much free to teach whatever they like without fear of an examiner turning up to spot check them?

Are you happy that training is governed by the price you as the student is willing to pay? are you happy that you could have world class instruction but you are not willing to pay for it?

does it please you that you will pay the price of an exhaust can for your training but still expect and demand so much?

are you happy to accept no responsibillity for yourself and blame your instructor if you fail because you are not willing to learn but are simply expecting to turn up for training and think that robotic repetition of what you have been told is enough?


would you be happy if all test passers were restricted to 125's for six months, then 400 for six months, before they can ride whatever they want?

Are you happy ultimately that instruction is a business, instructors are very often self employed and they earn next to nothing ( certainly below minimum wage most of the time) and the only way to adress this fact is to pay double what you pay for training?

do you want good instrcution or cheap instruction>? you cant always have both.

thats just a teaser for you chili. i have stressed money because that is the first step if you ask me.

im not gonna take them in any order mate...maybe pick them off 1 or 2 at a time

I have to start with the das training mate.....so why isnt it monatored or assessed...its a govrnment body linked training scheme so surely it must have a stict guidline on how its run and how people are assessed.....does that mean that driving schools are looked at in the same way as bike schools? and if not then why not?

currently the dsa is looking at ways to assess das training, at the moment i have a dsa approved das licence and i could teach whatever i like, if thats how i was, but then if thats how ''I'' was, i wouldnt be getting into rows on here all the time now would i?

I am lucky or we are, that in colchester we have an examiner who is pretty hot on assesment, ive been assessed several times in the last year. but its not usual.

Problem is, that all that contains me for instance is my own integrity - what if i had none? i could take your money and give you a pile of poo traiing and not give a toss! sod you, what would i care? i got your money!

ok, cbt training is strictly set out, its strictly monitored, yet a lot of training schools give crap cbt training ( as witnessed by some of the questions asked on here) and a lot of people have no idea what to expect from cbt training. so, if the dsa cant monitor cbt training then how could they with all the best will in the world monitor das training as well? driving schools i have no idea about as i have nothing to do with car tests.

It always seems to be the same ...everytime there some scheme or whatever, then the cowboys get there before the rules are set out properly ...make a kiling...give the whole thing a bad rep ...which then suffers because of lack of confidence from joe puplic.....so what do you see as a way to move this forward then mate?