Ok serious question. What is advanced motorcycling? or rather what do YOU think it is?

If youve not done any advanced riding what would you expect it to give you? if you have done some what do you think it did for you? Is it something that can be put into words? What do you think of when you hear the term advanced motorcycling?

Observation
Consideration
Planning
Implementation

Or I guess the easier way would be to define what I consider non-advanced riding, which is "Riding By Rote"

Well...I´ve never done it, but I would like to.

I´m expecting to learn road positioning, like where to be going around bends and where to look...
Know the dangerous of the road...which I think my experience as driver can help
braking techniques...
what to do in case of having to brake while going around a bend to aoid something...

eerrrmm..can´t remember more stuff....but something along these lines

Ok . i havent phrased the question well enough i reckon. what im after is a subjective few sentences of the emotion or feeling you have about what youd expect to get from an advanced riding course for example ( dont worry im not selling one !) just a conversation i had today with a student on an advnced riding course has prompted this question. All will be explained in good time ( Lol) but i dont want to load any answers.

Advanced riding for me would mean an assesment of my riding to find what needed improving and to work on that, to hone the skills I have got, so at the end I would want to be safer, smoother, faster and more relaxed. I would want to feel I had value for money. To have been taught by someone that clearly had a high degree of skill, so I could respect their judgment and have confidence in them.

What something like:

I would expect it to teach me the finer points of biking, to teach me how to control the bike properly, position it in the road to best advantage, always be in the right gear and at the right speed for any given situation, to ride in a safe manner, yet be able to make good progress through traffic and on the open road.

Ancientd, no, thats a text book answer not a heartfelt one.

I think I'd expect to improve my handling planning and positioning so it requires less effort and concentration to just ride the bike and I direct my energies to making better progress.

I think I'd expect observation and safety to be so worked in to the system as to be second nature.

Reality is, I think what I really need is how to deal with things when it starts to go wrong ... which I'd regard as intermediate rather than advanced.

teach me how to be faster and safer on the roads?

Do some wheelies?

wheelies my be cool in petrograd but not here mateski!

Why faster? been mentioned by more than one person but why faster?

Actually it's not mate, it's exactly what I picked up from my lessons many years ago, once learnt it's something that comes naturally, but you do need to keep on practicing.

So you now do all these things> you are never in the wrong gear, you always control the bike properly, you always position the bike to the best advantage, and are always at the right speed for any given situation, you always ride in a safe manner, and are always able to make good progress through traffic and on the open road?

You sir, are a better man than I. I salute you.

Only joking camrade....I have no intention to try it, I´m too afraid to fall off...but I do admire the guys that do it, but only for their skills, not for doing it to show off on public roads.



Well....because if you want more training is because you know there´s things you can improve, and the way you are riding now, if you are teached correctly you can ride safer and faster than you used to.

I know that if I get one of those trainings I can be safer around bends and by consequence faster.

For me it is a smooth, quick, uneventful ride. Everything flows without apparent effort. Bit like a swan...

Remember the question, this is not an argument of my opinion against anyone elses, its simply what do you think advanced riding is?

Yes, and?

I was kinda hoping that by stringing it all together a bit better my riding overall would be less stop start, seeing through corners more etc so therfore quicker (maybe that's a better word for it)

Must admit sometimes after a blast I do think that the Track might be a better option...I do enjoy speed , that's probably what got me hooked on bikes in the first place the exhileration of it..

Is there a cure Doctor ??

I have wondered about wheelie schools, but mostly so I know how to put it down properly without coming off if I throw it in the air by accident. Had a friend tell me a real pant-filler the other day about screwing up the gears on a ZX750.

He actually did soil himself, though he stayed on. Nice of him to tell us about it over dessert.

Because that's what todays bikes are built to do and when I ride them slowly I do not find them as much fun - ofcourse that could spawn a whole new debate about whether the excesses of power of modern machines are really necessary...

No, but I know how to and do try to. as I said it takes a lot of practice, but as we all know we all make mistakes, still one off in 30 years ain't that bad, I must have got it right some of the time.

Please dont think i was having a go ancientd, i wasnt, youll see in the end of this.

I agree with Mot...not faster, quicker....

putting all together would make me quicker, not braking too much, etc, etc....

Hmm. I've been debating posting in the other thread about riding position but I guess I'll do it here instead.

I'm a relatively new and not very experienced rider so I tend not to try to tell other people how to ride... So this is my two penn'eth and is my opinion based on my experiences and by no means fact.

Learning to ride a bike was not the easiest thing I've ever done (by a long chalk) and if my instructors had tried to teach me "advanced" techniques I'd probably have quit (bearing in mind I have a strong anal retentive streak and had read all of the DSA books and Roadcraft so had an appreciation of what they were).

For me, I would expect an advanced course to build on the basic skills I learned to be able to pass my test. However, I would have expected that some of these will have improved with experience over the intervening months but also I've no doubt picked up some bad habits.

Therefore, I would expect to learn additional skills and techniques to make me a safer and more competent rider. I would anticipate a corresponding increase in my confidence and hence observation skills.

I would expect to be able to more accurately analyse my own riding and determine areas for focus and improvement.

Given my current skill level, I would expect that would translate into being faster too, especially if my cornering skills improve, but still by no means excessively so.

I was going to use the road positioning as an example, but I'm too tired to type any more.

This is my third year in IAM and having failed the pre-test for entering a 30 doin 40 it aint no way about going faster. I find its more about reading situations an coming up with solutions prior to being on top of a situation.
Read the rd. Road surfaces, cars, pedestrians, wildlife n scroats. (ie,kids on bridges ready to throw items, re dumfries), minor dirt tracks before a brow of a hill can mean its completly covered over the top.(ie St Mary's loch). Getting into the flow, flick, flack corner after corner cos you saw how it lined up 2 corners ago and your already anticipating the next corners. Smooth, safe n enjoyable. Different scenarios require different thought processes and advanced riding provides the backgroung knowledge to fully appreciate them.

Lastly , I luv riding my bike and would have encountered more ohh sh!t moments if I hadn't have been assessed and pointed in the right direction. Still get the occassional oh bugger I could have done that better moments but realise that i'm still on a learning curve even after 60,000 miles in just over 3 n 1/2yrs. Straight from the heart MAlly.

PS. Dp is my observer n his knowkedge as bin priceless.

What do I feel I'd want from advanced training?...

Well, in a nut shell I'd want to learn to ride, not learn to pass my test. (Most instructors will tell you they are to separate things, and basic training is the latter.)

I'd want to learn to think, not to follow the book of instructions.



There you go, short and sweet.

If i was to do Advanced riding i would like to think it would make my riding more progressive.

Smoother, safer, relaxed and in control without being surprised by unexpected events, as I would be expecting them! (Apart from the Kababian body snatchers who can really sneak up on you unawares!)

That's what I would want from advanced training. Intend to go IAM during the next 6 months or so.

An advanced rider is one who will be operating at a higher level of competence. This will manifest itself as someone who is making progress while appearing unhurried. Gear selection, braking, acceleration and line will be smooth and well planned. A rider who is in the right place at the right speed in the right gear at the right time. Like I said earlier; a swan.

What is advanced motorcycling? or rather what do YOU think it is?
Obviously i have to declare an interest here

IMHO its about greater awareness, possibly a change in mindset.
being taught more about myself, areas i could improve my skills, in order to
A) learn more about myself & my bike
B) to achieve a smooth safe ride,to be aware of any condition/situation

I would expect whoever was "observing" me to know what they were about,
possibly to own a BMW & have a nice pair of slippers........


OK the last paragraph is flippant, but i think i know where this is going.
its one of the big failings with IAM, they are percieved as a bunch of old men, riding BM's with a "holier than thou" attitude.
which is NOTHING like the club i'm VC of-thank god.

Advanced Riding means pipe, slippers, beard and BMW (well, it did when I was a teen 'spatcher)

Advanced riding is a higher level than, or a level beyond the L test.

If I type anymore I'll ramble or get boggged down in minutiae. As Scarlet said, the Road Position thread is a good example of how one aspect of riding can be dissected and justified in a multitude of ways.

Okay I'll clarify my earlier post.

I have never actually done any courses or anything but I do have a family involvement (My mum works for ROSPA) and have had police advanced motorcyclists do some training with me for my bike test.

What I listed before is what I expect advanced riding to consist of, road positioning, when to use mirrors etc are details, but broadly I would expect a mindset which looked somewhat like I listed, basically the process of taking in what is around you, and then using it to alter the bike's course and speed. I would also expect it to be a far more adaptive and "thinking" process, at least initially to what I termed in the other thread, the "DSA Way".

Now initially I would say it would be harder work, far far harder as the rider needs to think about a lot more, you have to be looking out a lot more etc, but to some extent those techniques can move from the concious to the sub-concious so after extensive experience it shouldnt be that much more "work" that driving the "DSA Way".

The end result I would say, is fundementally to be more adaptive and smoother. By adaptive I mean the ability to ride through an unexpected/never previously encountered possibly dangerous situation with a higher "chance of survival" than a "DSA Way" rider. I would also expect it to mean that due to a higher amount of anticipation, not only would the riding be smoother, there would also be a smaller chance of getting into the former situation.

By smoother, I mean that the controls, would involve less input, the acceleration/braking/steering would be less, as the manouver would be prepared for, or started earlier meaning it wasnt so abrupt.

I have been deliberately vague here, as to me saying something like "better lines through corners" or whatever is missing the point, to me they should be an effect, not a cause.

The end result may be that be that you become faster, but only as a knock on effect of being smoother, the core precept though that you should get from advanced riding is the mindset and the way of thinking through the process of "eyes to controls", anything else I feel is basically the DSA way of "Riding By Rote", your just adding more pre-determined manouvers to the initial DSA set.

Well thats my opinion anyway!

I agree with most people here.

Its about linking it all together, being able to predict all the possibilities so that you are not cought out and have a pre formed plan as to what to do.

Faster is wrong, but being able to flow your riding through the traffic. Instead of coming up behind cars and slowing down to there speed, timing your arrival so that there is a gap and your speed carries you through without slowing down.

Its about being proactive, not reactive.

Also, it gave me a lot of confidence

to me advanced riding is...

enabling me to be the best/safest rider I can be and through continous improvment help me to continue improving so that I can be confident that I am doing the best I can to prevent being a danger to myself or any other road user and as a result enjoy my bikes to a much greater extent than previously

I could go into all the areas that it is helping me but for me that (above) is what its all about.

Hi Zombie
emotionally I think, well would I be good enough to do the course in the first place. I know there are all sorts of flaws in my riding technique so do I have to labour away to a certain point before getting the advanced training I need. I know all the principles but actually applying them is another matter. I would like to scare myself a little less often and would an advanced course help with that? It seems to me that the extra power available to me these days means a different technique from that I used on my old Triumph.

If the practical test is your 'O' level then the advanced test is your degree. One requires a greater level of understanding/input than the other but they are both valid in their own right.

For those of you under 35(?), ask your parents what an O level is/was or substitute GCSE

Cool replies from everyone thankyou all very much. This thread mirrors what i think of when i think of advanced riding and that is generally that there is no single answer to the question. it is relative to the rider after all and what they want from it ( obviously coupled with what they expect from it). now, the question that spurred this question if you like was a student on an advanced course ( nothing to do with me i was just there and overheard the question) asking why they were spending time riding round town. The student felt that advanced riding was all about open road riding and going faster and that was what they wanted from the course. I tired to point out that speed wasnt the issue, to me its all about confidence and smoothness. Urban riding is a huge part of most of our riding and is generally where most accidents occur so why not improve in that arena?

In a way this was a non'answerable question because advanced riding is all things to all people.

My idea is that it improves riding overall, open roads, motorways, urban riding and the reason these areas improve all comes down to the same basic ideas. Observation, planning and speed assessment.
Something i awlays say is slow down to go faster. Seems an odd thing to say but if (like i have been in the past) you get challenged to ride five miles through town without stopping you will find all of these things improve!

The main thing that advanced riding should be able to teach is the abillity to look at what we ourselves have done and pick fault in it. understand the faults and realise how to improve. ( anyone who went to pewsey knows i am more than willing to criticise myself and take advice from anyone who thinks i could have done better). Understand that we all make mistakes, none of us is perfect, we all have stuff to learn.

This question was never intended as having an answer and was in fact intended as a way for me to learn something, and i have and i thank everyone who contributed. My plan is that your replies will make me a better instructor and hoepfully a better rider as well.
nice one . cheers all.

I would have replied to this thread in time, but I'm so slow up the straights that I didn't get here before everyone had gone home. I guess I'm just not advanced.

But I am improved.

The great thing with that is there is no test other than comparison with myself, I don't need to be able to ride fast or have a fast bike, and I only need to be a little better on a regular basis to be a winner.

Why would you need to ride fast and have a fast bike to be advanced? ( conversing your reply i admit, may not be what you meant but its just how i read it. )



that should be the motto of all advanced groups. and is certainly the way i look at it.

I don't believe it's necessary at all, and wrote an article to that effect (entitled Advanced riding on a retarded motorcycle ) to show that there is much to be gained at whatever size or speed of bike is being used. However, I have come across people who seem to think that advanced riding means fast riding.

In my opinion, a granny on a Tomos moped could have more advanced skills than her grandson on a Hayabusa but one IAM chappies once told me that they wouldn't be able to assess whether or not I was any good if I didn't go fast. My reply was that it takes as much skill, or possibly more, to pass a car doing 40, on a bike that only does 50 as it does to pass a car doing 70 on a bike that will do 140. If the examiner can't assess that, there's something lacking in the examiner. He didn't agree, which is his right.

Absolutely, I'd go further ... tanking it at 120mph down an empty dual on a nice Sunday afternoon is much less challenging than filtering up the M3 at 35mph at 7am on a drizzly Monday morning.

Both involve progress ...

Really? Yet "progress" is about matching speed, road and traffic conditions, and vehicle capability...

one of the basic pre-requesites of the advanced test is that your bike(or car) can maintain the National speed limit, we have had someone pass on a 125, but its not an everyday thing.
this is one of the main reasons we dont "do" scooters.

That's assuming you want to take the IAM test, as opposed to merely improving your skills. Frankly, I found the IAM a bit anal in its approach.

Some of the advanced "schools of thought" (i'm not mentioning any names as any info I have is third hand) seem to be concentrating more on "making progress" than in safer riding. So basically mostly what they want to see you do is overtake whenever its possible in as safe and as smooth way as possible. That to me isnt advanced riding, advanced riding is more about doing your best with what you have got. If thats a C90 that can just about do 30, then so be it.

I've had several falling outs with advanced observers and assessors over the years. When I'm riding (whether observed or not) it is my decision and mine alone whether or not to overtake. If I don't think it is safe, irrespective of what my observer might think; it is not safe in my opinion and it is my opinion that decides on the level of risk I take and my word is final. If they don't like it...

even if it is "safe" to overtake, does that mean you nescessarily have to ?

No - and it is the rider's decision to make. You might not pass an advanced test, but so what? My sister is a classic example of this. When we are riding together she will choose not to take opportunities that exist because she is uncomfortable with them. For her to go past means a long straight stretch of road with a clear view - anything less and she won't go. I've grown used to it now. If I go past, I'll just settle down and wait for her to appear in my mirrors.

I have only just got my arris into gear and started doing advanced riding recently so I am no expert, but, it certainly seems to me that some of the techniques really are not applicable if one is not travelling in excess of 30MPH.

In my opinion that does not stop a scoot rider learning and applying some advanced techniques but they probably will not be able to apply all of them effectively because of the limitations of their machine.

On the subject of overtaking I was a little concerned about this after reading a post from one of the 'seasoned vets' on another thread. I raised the issue during the chat after my initial assessment ride. My observer was fairly certain that I would not have a problem (even though I had overtaken nothing) considering the way he had just seen me ride - I don't think he meant I was a complete hooligan...

Another thought though, if the intention of following the advanced rider training is to take the test then I would say that it is a legitimate expectation to overtake (if there is an opportunity) so that the manoeuvre can be assessed during the test.

Also am I correct in thinking that on the basic driving test you can be marked down for hesitancy if you do not exit a junction when there is an opportunity to do so?

But in my opinion, advanced riding and the IAM are not the same thing*. Yes, if I wanted to pass the IAM test I would expect to join their club and learn to ride how they wanted me to. I didn't want that, but it hasn't stopped me learning more and improving on the skills I already had.


*I'm not saying they don't do advanced riding, but that I feel that it's possible to have advanced in your riding without doing it according to the IAM style.