I can get my knee down on left hand corners all day long but right hand corners i seem to panic on and have to slow down too much, is there anyway to boost my confidence??

yes, we can all call "ta-rah rah rah" for u


Save it for the track mate

HTH

Not realy, just be careful if your doing it on the road, i got a bolloking for mentioning this also

See the thing is, as this is an open forum, anybody can read it, nonbikers, police etc, so if we start saying, its easy to wheelie at a ton, maybe its is, but alot of people outside the biking community will and do tar all bikers with the same brush and start with the words like "all bikers are loons, irresponsible and should not be alowed on the road".

Very true, and a lot of bikers would rather concentrate on riding properly and safely than trying to get their kneecaps ripped off on the road, it has been proven time and time again, trying to get your knee down makes you slower through the corners on the road. It's a nice trick, is useful on the race track but has no real place on the road. I've seen some guy get his knee down in a straight line, so doing it round a bend only proves that you can, nothing else.

By the way right handers are easier than left handers, the camber gives you more of a 'Lean' angle to start off with, just look at any rear tyre, if there is a chicken strip it will always be on the left hand side or larger on the left hand side, proving that in the UK the roads help you moore on the left than the right meaning that the angle of lean is less on the left than the right, an effect of road camber.

I car't say that you should trying to get your knee down, but if it s just 'cornering hard' {Cough} to the right, is your fear getting your head over the line?

If so i think this is only natural and a good awarness of road possitioning, will help.

Its something i'm often thought about when cornering hard, my wheels are on the right side of the road but my head and shoulders arnt! So I just started to prep the corner 1st by staying to the left a little longer on approch....

Good luck mate and like Queen said 'Don't loose your head!'

Positioning is a common problem on the road, far too many try to adopt race lines which are a way to invite injury on the roads. Hitting the apex on a right hand bend on the road is suicide, great on a track where nothing is coming the other way. Remember if any part of you or your bike is over the line then not only will it hurt but it will be your fault as well. Forget what you see on the race track, if you want to learn to corner quickly then get advanced lessons or buy a book on 'Roadcraft' they will both show you where you need to be in the road at any time and also why. Riding in a safe manner will increase your confidence, you will become a smoother rider and as a consequence much faster on the road.

sorry let me rephrase that to just "tighter cornering" not getting my knee down, but i am sure you all knew what i meant, the only reason i ask is i admit to having very little experiance compared to alot of you's but the other day i was going in to a corner and nearly lost it nearly hitting the kerb, yet going the opposite way it was a perfect line.

Basically, look through the exit of the corner where you want to end up, don't focus on a point mid bend. If you fixate on a point in the bend, like an apex, you'll tend to hit that point and then run wide. If you do find yourself running a little wide, look at where you want to end up (a point past the bend in the mid distance) and give the inside bar a little push away from you to make the bike tip in harder. This is called countersteering, and it really works.
Lastly, don't piss about trying to "get off" the bike, stay planted in the seat in the normal riding position, getting off tends to affect your line and the bike's balance and can have a negative effect rather than a positive one.
Lines - don't try to cut in to the apex of the corner, maintain a consistant position in your lane all the way round, running round the outside of the corner (as in, right around the left hand side of your lane on a right hand corner), this gives you a nice smooth cornering line where you're better able to react to changes in road conditions, and you are able to see much further ahead through the corner as well, meaning you can react much earlier to potential hazards on the other side of the corner.

Also, take a look at your suspension and tyre pressures and profiles, wheel alignment etc, if something isn't right in these areas it could possibly cause the bike to corner better one way than the other.

Point your head to where you want to go, dip your elbow and shoulder to the direction you want to go, keep a loose grip on the bars (same as holding a pint no more) if you don't like right handers chances are you'll grip the bars more or tense up a bit this will compound your feeling of anxiety by you fighting the bike more, go with the flow. Don't worry too much about the bike feeling a bit flighty as already explained in the camber of the road. Get yourself over left earlier than you would normally to give the earliest posible view... and er practise

Remember as well that people are always asymetric and so is our view on life both practical and theoretical. what i mean is most bikers have a confidence imbalance with corners going one way or the other. some like right handers and some prefer lefts. thats just how we are.

On right handers you should be on the left hand side of your lane, so well away from the middle white line. Obviously not in the marbles on the edge of the road, or the curb, but far enough left to get the best view of the exit to the corner. The trick to fast cornering is being smooth, not looking like a GP star!

The other guys are right. Look at where you want to go. If you look at the white line or the trees on the side you will end up there. Try it on a corner you know well, and at a slower speed. Build up speed gently until you get the confidence to almost do it blindfolded.

I spent all morning doing one set of sweeping bends I know very well when I got the blade, it wasn't boring at all and gave me so much more confidence than trying it on a corner I didn't know, possibly with other sports bikes waiting to pass!

Hi M8



I would suggest Trying a Bikesafe day.....

It is only £30 for a day with the police,,,, Lots of useful tips on how to ride fast and safe..

I could not beleive it that on the 2nd run I was leaning much more and used 1/4 inch on each side of the rear tyre.....
and most important doing it safely,,,,,,

Umm. let me get this straight! You want to drag your valuable kneecap along the public highway when going around corners? Why? Does it look cool? Most police riders who have their knees grasped firmly around the tank can probably out corner you, GP riders put their kneed down as an indicator of lean angle on a track that they have been practicing for a couple of days around, and guaranteed no potholes, coke cans etc. So tell me honestly, whats the point of getting your knee down on the road?

Sounds to me mate, that you have to go back to basics.....and you have to re-apprase the way you corner. if youve nearly hit the kerb, then you have fixed your vision on that point.....you have to remember that most bends/corners on the public roads are not perfect bends/corners(not like on a race track) and you need to look where your going, with that i mean......look through and out of the bend, your bike will go where your looking, so if you look at the kerb youll hit it, if you look at the white line then you'll drift out towards it.................if i were you then i'd be thinking more on my approach speed and road position first before i think of doing a Rossi on the road

Watch out if you try counter steering, your brain will tell you it can't be done and you'll lose it! Cos it feels weird!
I advise booking an advanced course. Lots of places in the UK.

therefore Left hand /right hand on the same bend - ??? Position in the road and the camber will make a difference - it also helps if you position yourself so you are looking through the bend thus keeping you on line

countersteering is natural - just happens

Wrong! You can bumble away wondering in the back of your mind about cornering, how you go round corners, or, you can learn about it

OK, maybe I'm getting my Dutch and English mixed up again, I was informed (by an advanced course instructor here... who calls it countersteering), that if you countersteer, eg going into a right hander... you verrry gently and not too much, steer your handlebars to the left... we're talking millimeters here. Thus bringing the back end of the bike round so it is in a direct line through the bend.

So ... am I right? Or am I still getting my Dutch and English words mixed up?

Then again, I suppose on the usual bends and normal speeds, to an extent you do countersteer without realising you do it. You need to otherwise you'll never make it round. So... everyone's right!

Snap, I agree. I have never consciously countersteered and I do it all the time - well I must do, else I'd never make it around corners

and theres me thinking sending peeps round the bend came natural to you.

Are you sure that I'm entirely Wrong or do you merely disagree?

I very much doubt that every rider who leans their bike into a corner has had detailed training in countersteering techniques.

I'll have you know that a lot of work goes into that

I've been doing this biking stuff for about 2 minutes in the grand scheme of things, and this counter steering thing is confusing me.

I'm more inclined to find find myself on an outward drift (i.e I'm always going wide if you'll pardon the expression ) because I'm still anxious about the lean. So instead I find myself instinctively "tipping" the bike in the direction I'm cornering (by pushing the inside handlebar away from me) to tighten the line, instead of trying to lean further inward.

From what I've read this is a form of counter-steering, but I must be wrong because "counter" means to effect some kind of opposing force, right?

Shall I get me coat?

This is exactly what counter-steering is. Counter as in opposing, becuase you are steering the opposite way from the way you wish to turn.

Although steering is a bit of a misnomer as you dont actually turn the handlebars.

Okay, from reading this thread I think I've got it now...

To take a corner I keep my handle bars straight, look ahead and lean into the opposite side from the corner!

I think this is the confusing bit... I remember when I sat down to think about it it sure threw me...

perhaps we should rename it counterpushing

just keep that old tune in your head as you go round bends...

Push it... P-P-P-Push it real good...

Actually it can vary, I do this weird thing with my foot on the pegs... has the same effect

I'd say overall its more to do with being "one" with the bike and controlling it with your whole body....ooerr

(sorry my excuse is I must be drunk on cough mix)

Very informative thread. Thanks!

Think of it this way...
It is the rear wheel that steers the bike and not the front (that is only there to keep you upright), so by countersteeering you are aiding the rear wheel in it's progress round the corner by leaning the bike in a smooth and balanced manner.

Though I would not recommend consciously countersteering (pushing the bars intentionally to lean the bike further) until you had full confidence in your riding ability i.e. a load of miles under your belt.

Try having the balls of you feet in the pegs that way you get better feed back when cornering

Being a total newbie to this bigger boy lark, this thread is giving me some much needed advice.

Keep it coming guy's.

I'll be able to turn corners in no time....LOL

Exqueeze me, the rear wheel does not steer the bike!

Forget this counter-steering nonsence, none of us is Valantino, Hayden, or Pedrosa and will never be. Trying to countersteer in a corner is a short cut to a big off, leave it to the guys who can...

There is only one rule on cornering- get round it! Bikes in ditches or head-on with cars don't usually give their riders the same 'feel good' as getting round the bend.

So what if you are not getting your knee down (I never do - what's the point?) as long as you come out of the bend in control, safely, ready for the next one, and with a big grin on your face you have done OK in my book.

Sunday afternoons riding the twisties in North Norfolk along the coast roads is the business, but I don't need to wear out my leathers to prove it!

Sorry but you are wrong.

Countersterring, or call it what you want is how you get round corners. try riding down a road and then sterring left/right and see which way the bike goes. It will not go the way you turn the bars, unless you are going at a very slow speed.

Cornering at speed is carried out by the use of countersteering and centrifugal force. We all do it, we just don't have to hang some form of title on it.

or failing that, i must have been bumbling around for the last 17 years, cos i have never been 'taught' how to corner!!!!

Have to agree. You physically cannot make a bike go round a corner without counter-steering (at "normal" riding speeds...if the speed's about 5mph of less, then you steer like a pushbike), whether you are aware of applying the technique or not.

This is due to gyroscopic precession. A gyroscope reacts to a force which tried to rotate its axis of rotation with a force which is at right-angles to both the applied force and the axis of rotation.

The net result of this is that the motorcycle wheel reacts to the force you're applying to (try to) turn the wheel to the left by leaning the bike over to the right (right-hand corner).

Please stop, I can't take anymore. I have never heard so much tripe from some of you, who I am sure are trying to help, but are filling peoples heads with nonesense.

Counter steering is fact. You cannot go round a corner at anything much above 10mph without it. As already said, gyroscopic law tells us that when a wheel rotating forward is rotated in the vertical axis ACW it will lean to the right. CW it will lean to the left. My 6 year old daughter does it, I have seen her but she doesn't know she is doing it.

A wheel that leans to the right will turn right and a wheel that leans to the left will turn left.

Dragging your knee is a product of going fast round a corner, it doesn't make you fast, it will make you slower if done for show. As said it will also give you an indication of when you are at max lean angle.

As a rule you don't steer a bike with the rear. It can be achieved by those Uberbikers but us mortals don't tend to do it and certainly not on public highways.

Most people have problems with LH bends. It is a natural reserve brought on by the fact that if you bin it on a LH curve you will slide into the oncoming traffic.

Dragging your knee on the road is not only crazy, you could well find yourself in a few places you'd rather not be. In front of the Beek, in a box or in a dense forest with 2 broken legs and no way of raising the alarm. I have done it, I have also drifted out to the patch of gravel that sits in wait. I have ended up sliding into the afore mentioned bit of forest and had to ride it home with no footpeg and broken headlights, smashed nose cone and no mirrors.

My rule is always ride within 80% of your ability on the road. Its alright riding on the limit on the track where you have 20 yards of run off when you go in to hot and a medic on standby but on the road there is always someone coming the other way.

Bumble away, my thought is to apply logic not instict, once you stop bumbling and engage first. There are plenty of new bikers in here that don't have "17 years of bumbling". A lot of folks have never even thought of doing it. Try even just riding along a straight piece of road, look at objects ahead and conciously countersteer round them, good practice, to subcontiously avoid things, or "bumble a bit" ?

When has biking ever been about 'logic'.

You suggest that becasue i have never been taught about cornering, i must be, to use YOUR phrase 'bumbling'.

Nothing is further from the truth. Biking is about feel and ability. You can read all the books aboput it, and be taught theory till it comes out of your ears, but there are bad riders who will always be bad, for various reasons. There are average riders (which i would think i am), good riders and exceptional riders. It is not training that sets them apart IMHO, but natural flair.


'Bumbling'

Ffs what a term.

I agree with Steve on this. I countersteered for years naturally before I even heard the term and trust me, if I was bumbling god knows what the other road users were doing.

Gyroscopic forces try to make the bike upright and to shove it over in a corner I countersteer. I don't know the physics behind it, or whether it's the front or rear wheel that steers. What I do know is that ever since I started riding motorbikes and needed to go round a corner I did what felt natural - that is push on the left handlebar to go round a left corner and vice versa.

I think that the general rule is:

Back wheel: stability
Front wheel: steering

You've got to be a god to actually do rear-wheel steering. It'll most likely end in a high-side and tears.

Ok think of it this way.
Steering is easy in a car, turn the wheel left you go left etc. On a bike, up to a certain speed, depending on geometry, that happens also. Above that speed, lets say 50mph, if you want to turn to the left, do you actually steer left? I don't think so.
Ok, on a bike how in reality do you steer left, shift your weight so the bike leans? Throw an anchor out? No, you subconsiounsly go round the corner. How do you do that? You can't steer a car with your mind, when you are cornering on a bike it all comes natural? Well, analyse it a bit, countersteering is what you may do to set the lean on the bike to go round the corner.

Simple try out, traffic free road or somewhere with room, build up in 5mph increments and turn your bars, you will spot when turning to the left goes left or goes right.


BTW, for the guys who cant read and are talking about rossi etc, countersteer isn't opposite locking.

isnt it called countersteering......because your counteracting the effects of steering by leaning the bike instead of turning the bars...and doesnt the rear wheel because it drives the bike round the corner/bend become an important part of the steering?......or should it be called counterbalencing...who knows...who really cares...i'll just happily keep bumbling round corners/bends...cos it makes me

Thats true of a car, but not true of a bike at anything but low speeds, turning of the handlebars is NOT required at speed.

Take a round coin and put it on the table on its edge so its free to roll, give it a nudge so it rolls forward and tips to one side, it doesnt just keep going in a straight line until it falls over, it will go around in a curve in the direction its leaning.

There is no external torque turning the coin to make it go around in the circle, only the fact that its "leaning" makes it turn. (I beleive this effect is called precession).

Another example, there was a guy a few years ago who went around the TT course completely on the back wheel, (publicity "stunt" kinda thing). Effectively what he was riding was now a big powerful unicycle - he could still go around bends though just by leaning into the bend the same as you would on a bike. No front wheel to steer there!

Third example, "no hands" riding both on a push bike and on a motorbike. (Not something I have ever been able to do) Even without touching the handlebars so not being able to supply any input to the handlebars, people can still steer the bike. Again its by leaning NOT by steering with the front wheel.

So after all that hopefully we have established that a single wheel/coin/roundthing that is leaning will follow an arc rather than a straight line. So what makes you think the rear wheel is any different in that regard? The rear wheel is lent over just like the front - its not magically staying upright while you and the rest of the bike lean into the bend, so it is also making the bike turn!

Completely get rid of the idea of the front wheel turning to steer a bike at any moderate speed, its how cars work - not bikes, we lean!

Now how we lean and stop leaning is where the discussion arrises from, there are several different ways to make the bike lean, whether that is from shifting your weight, countersteering, etc, all you are doing is getting the bike to lean - its the lean that is making the bike turn though, not the front wheel!

But you've missed the point that to get the front wheel to lean, at speed, you need to try to turn the wheel. That's the effect of precession. If you just try to lean a rotating wheel, it'll try to turn (also precession) which isn't what you want for cornering at speed.

No that was my point, that is one way to get the bike to lean, not the only one. Yes it is by far the easiest one and the way most of us mere mortals alter the lean of the bike, but as given in my second and third example, it is possible to steer a bike without handlebar/front wheel input.

Bikes "steer" by leaning, this is caused by both the front and back wheel.
Leaning can be altered through handlebar input, but handlebar input is not the only means by which the angle of lean can be altered.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive...es/1268501.html

Interesting, maybe the leaning and hanging off ardents actually put some more weight on one handle bar to turn them while they were squirming around on their saddle?

okay so how is it possible to steer a bike without touching the handlebars?

Its done with upper body movements and pressure from either leg.......just like you did as a kid on your push bike when you rode without using your hands....look where you want to go...twist upper torso and apply pressure with one knee to the tank

These guys who do long wheelies like TT or Great Wall of China have an electric motor spinning the front wheel. They turn the bars and use the gyroscopic effect to turn the bike.

finn - its called gyroscopic precession, and its bollox.

weld the forks straight, then lean and see how many corners you get round, not a lot, well maybe really long open sweepers but not anything tight. of course you steer round bends. youre a clever bloke, get the calculator out and work out the tightest turning circle of your bike with fixed steering but on full lean, youll see. next we'll deal with all the crap pseudo science that surrounds counter steering just for a laugh. ohh what a shock, a bike is steered by steering, how odd. Why atrent sports bikes four feet long with no steering head?because they wouldnt go round corners obviously. racers do a lot of leaning, why do they have steering heads on their bikes?

going round corners has nothing to do with the front wheel??? shame on you mate lol!!